Control one of the Soviet AFVs in THC’s 2023 play-by-comment Combat mission game? Use the comment section of this password-protected post to discuss tactics with your comrades, and communicate orders to me, the GM.
Lions of Lodowice – Soviet mess
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TURN 7
Congratulations once more, copperbottom—the SU-100 Newlyweds Edition is a nifty little present.
Sitting in the cold light of the airport lounge, I have some thoughts.
Past: bummer about the pathfinding. I probably could have specified a more oblique approach to the bridge, I guess, but that’s hindsight for you.
Present: I think I intend to follow more or less my original plan. The bold play for the Germans would be to push the Panther and one/both of the Tigers immediately, on the theory that exposing more tanks than we have guns to answer is likely to lead to even trades at worst, and thereby a 2v1 or 1v0, but I don’t know if they’re willing to make that very Soviet calculation. Landing on d1SE or e1SW should, I think, cover the Tigers from coming very much north of the brewery, and puts me in an adequate position to reverse back to Copernicus Street on following turns.
The keyhole view at g4 would provide much better cover for you against the Tiger, but I don’t think I’m making that drive in 60 seconds.
Future: our immediate goal ought to be to ensure your survival. Beyond that, though, we should figure out how we want to play out the next five or ten turns. Tactically, I see in my mind’s eye positioning ourselves where there’s an obvious move and a non-obvious move, and the non-obvious move puts us in place to get a surprise shot at one of the Germans, but I don’t see any immediate opportunities for that. Strategically, playing from our side of the map and perhaps falling back on infantry support is the conservative play. (It may also bring my mines into play, although baiting the Germans onto one would take a lot of retreating.)
More daringly, we could play a somewhat more aggressive fighting retreat; looking for passing shots and counterattacks may generate some of those tactical options I hope we can find.
I agree with pretty much all of that. Falling back but looking for opportunities to break tendency and offer a counterattack threat seems the right balance between self preservation and keeping them on their toes.
This turn, I think I’d better head directly to k10SE. At i9 i’m at risk of being trapped by the tiger, and given the way that Gobser has played I think my presence will prevent him form pushing too far forwards with the panther regardless.
If I were the Tiger, I’d be going straight for e10, which is probably about 30 seconds away (tops), and may have a view at the gap between buildings at l11. If he’s greedy, he might go as far as e10NE, which has a better view south at the cost of being vulnerable to me, if I push for f1SW. He might alternately be interested in f12NW or thereabouts, but I think he probably would have gone further along the road if so.
If I were the King Tiger, I’d be going for about c11SW or points further northeast, which will dramatically limit my room to maneuver—good sight lines all the way up to e1. He’s very close to that, it looks like to me—maybe 15-20 seconds.
I’m not sure what the Panther wants. Possibly to pincer me with the King Tiger; possibly to resume the c6 overwatch, although the latter doesn’t buy them much. Perhaps he’ll try to get more active in the south, passing through c6.
My first impulse is to go for e1SW, which gives me time enough (probably) to get my front armor facing southwest. It also gives me a line on e10NE, just barely, while forcing the King Tiger and/or Panther to come fairly far forward to menace me.
The hyper-risky play for me would be to turn around and re-hunt the Panther, but I don’t think the bridge is wide enough for an immediate turn. Another risky play (that may let me live to fight another day) would be to try to run for cover at f1NE immediately, and let the KT do what it will. I wouldn’t be super-thrilled about exposing side armor, but the e1SW play means I’m almost certainly going to be forced to go west again if I don’t catch the KT coming up toward the Boleslav Bridge.
The risky play for you might be to go to about i10E and wait for the Tiger to peek out at e10. Nobody else really has a shot at you this turn—head to head is a gamble, but if it pays, you’d have time to withdraw, I suspect, even reversing to k11 as insurance against the King Tiger looking for a shot at you.
I remain undecided on what to do after writing this. e1SW has limited flexibility in next moves, f1 requires some extremely wimpy play on the part of the Germans or a lot of luck, but positions me better for future turns. Thoughts?
I expect the panther to stay roughly where it is this turn – Gobser has taken no risks so far. The possibility of me going to i9 should be enough to limit it’s movement northwards.
For the Tiger, e10 seems like it’s target last turn, yeah. I think there’s a very good chance that it now switches to g12 and I’ll need to be prepared for both. I think going to i10SE and then reversing to j10SE should let me cover e10 while at least narrowing the angle if it appears at g12.
The KT is absolutely the big problem here. f1 feels like too big a gamble, e1 risks being stranded in no-man’s land. I would not try charging the panther, personally. If you want to stall things, b1E should keep you safe this turn and deny the Germans the bridges, but it would also fix you in place until infantry arrives. The big gamble being whose troops would get there first.
Agreed on Gobser; I don’t expect a sudden burst of daring initiative this turn.
I don’t think g12 is as likely as e10 for the Tiger—g12 isn’t as protected on the north flank, and has less of a view into the k11 hidey-hole they may expect you to make for. It’ll also take most of the turn to get there, whereas e10 is attainable pretty early on.
There is a bit of a pattern in your moves they might be planning for, too: you’ve generally gotten to a firing position nearer the end of your turns, and started the new sixty by moving toward a new one. Having the gun ready to meet an intruding Tiger relatively early in the turn (with the move to i10SE, e.g.) may catch them by surprise. Given how much further g12 is, I might want to try to get the gun in position faster (move i10SE reverse j10SE has a long turn in the middle of the moves), but I don’t have a good sense for the relative speed of turning vs. moving in Combat Mission.
In either case, I think I’m making my peace with e1SW. The King Tiger would have to come all the way to d10 to find an angle on me, and I think I can get to e1SW at a favorable angle before he can clear the corner of the university. If he is going to push the middle, I want to be in place to take a shot at him. If I need to evade a Panther coming north, I can always drive south along the riverbank to buy a few moments more.
ORDER, TURN 7
FAST i10E
Face due west, target arc e9 to e11
wait 10s
REVERSE j10E, target arc e9 to g12
Face g12
TURN 7 ORDER
TARGET ARC SW-S
FAST e1SW
FACE SSW
TARGET ARC g12-c10
HOPE I haven’t talked us into any disasters
TURN 8
Well, we’re alive, with no shots exchanged, thanks in part to our opponents playing like they’re down 1-3 rather than up 3-2. I wonder if we can find a way to use that.
Tim, am I correct in interpreting the main post to mean I’m still rotating at the end of the 60? Has the IS-2 always been so slow to turn in place, or is this instance an anomaly? Is turning with a bit of forward movement quicker?
We did seem to get the Germans’ plans right: Tiger on e10, King Tiger up the middle, Panther still noodling around in the university.
Their future plans are a little more unclear. The Tiger can’t come around the corner while you’re there, but he’s also kind of pinning you by his presence on e10—move at the wrong time, and he might get a free shot at you while you’re turned/reversing.
The King Tiger is strongly placed, but I think I’m just far enough in at e1SW that it’d be a roll of the dice for him to advance around the corner alone. He could turn it into a pincer with the Panther, if the Panther can be enticed to leave his hidey-hole. A chance for a relatively clean 2v1 might do the trick there.
My inclination would probably be to drive southwest a touch, if that’s what we think will happen—Gobser’s play so far suggests he’s likely, if playing part of a pincer, to come as little away from cover as can possibly be managed, so changing up the angles may turn a 2v1 into two subsequent 1v1s.
>> am I correct in interpreting the main post to mean I’m still rotating at the end of the 60?..
The IS-2 completed the turn and is currently facing SSW. I’d not noticed the ponderous stationary turns before. In future I’ll add a short curve of reorientation waypoints to the end of a move sequence rather than rely on a ‘change facing’ at the final waypoint.
Thanks!
Yeah, we are both in something of a mexican stand-off with our respective tigers, with the Panther being the free variable. I can’t see any realistic way for the panther to get after me next turn, so I guess the options are to hold the fort or attempt a pincer on you via a4. If they try the pincer, the timing for them will be tricky, at least. A small move could add an extra spanner in their works, though your turret traversal between corners would be increased a tad by going SW.
For me, I think a small move forward forward again gives me a better angle to reverse out in future and may deter the Panther from getting after you (if it stays in place this turn).
@Tim: does the title image show the final position of the Tiger? Am I right in thinking that our LoS is currently obscured by the walls of the house and not just the trees?
I think the play for me is to assume a pincer and figure that the Panther will take it slowly and cautiously.
Something like wait 30 seconds (to catch the King Tiger moving if they get the timing wrong, or the Tiger if it advances sufficiently), then move a bit S or SW to change the angles needed for a pincer. If that reduces the number of threats to one, I can reorient next turn, maybe with a reverse-while-turning maneuver.
I’m not sure what the Tiger will do. I would be a little surprised if he pokes his nose out; that would be a one-on-one and not necessarily a favorable one for the Krauts.
I suspect the Tiger will be happy to hold position and stop me heading north to support you. My plan is to hunt forward to i10-. In the off chance that it charges I’ll be ready, and if it doesn’t I’ll have a better retreat angle next turn if we want it.
Sounds good to me. (Once again, they’re chatty over on the German side…)
It’s a bummer I couldn’t get back to the east side of the river. Now I feel Oneknown’s pain.
ORDER, TURN 8
HUNT i10E. Narrow target arc (8.5 o’clock to 9.5 o’clock)
End facing the gap between buildings at e10.
TURN 8 ORDER
FACE c5NW
WAIT 15 seconds
HUNT c1SE with TARGET ARC narrowly on the corner of the university building at a3/a4.
I doubt the King Tiger fancies a head-on duel, but just in case I’ll give him a moment.
I also doubt they’ll try to carry out a pincer this turn, but they’ll probably try to set one up for next time. If so, I expect them to set it up so both component tanks have to cover as little distance as possible to conduct the maneuver, to make coordination as easy as possible. Therefore, I’ll put myself somewhere I could take a shot at the Panther’s most natural hiding spot for such a maneuver.
TURN 9
I thought to myself, yesterday, “Maybe I should put another square or two on that move order,” but it was already 4pm EDT and I figured it probably wouldn’t make a difference.
🙁
To have so perfectly judged my maneuver, and to see the opportunity turn to ash before my eyes! Удачи нет. And now there are some side and turret shots available against me, which do not inspire as much confidence as that front hull plate.
Yeah, that is pretty gutting. We could really use a break, to lose out on that situation is a kick in the teeth.
I wonder if this might be the time for me to bet the farm. I can’t really reverse; that puts me back into the jaws of the pincer, and the King Tiger will probably take the chance to come northeast without the risk of return fire anyway.
Nor does staying put buy me much except maybe another turn’s reprieve, although I suppose I’m controlling the bridges for our side.
I don’t expect the Panther to come a-hunting. I think he’s likely to stay put like he did last time we were almost muzzle to muzzle, though he might plausibly try to reverse out of danger too. I have decent obliquity, and *checks notes* good side armor, evidently, and a lot more gun to bring to bear.
There is the risk that betting the farm turns into buying it, but I think I’m on borrowed time as it is, if something isn’t done about one of the KT or P.
(At least, it looks like good obliquity on the grid map; it looks a little hairier in the screenshots.)
Yeah, retreat isn’t an option, so the panther needs to be engaged, one way or another. You’re also partially hull down due to the bridge wall, which is a plus.
We do have the option of a pincer if I go back to the riverbank, though. I’m trying to work out how dangerous that would be, which very much depends on where the tiger is going…
I don’t know if we can make that develop quickly enough to be a true pincer, but it may give us a shot at the Panther if things don’t go my way.
It does bear with it some risk of losing altogether, if the Tiger anticipates you.
TURN 9
Well my friends, it’s good to be back.
I’m thinking of taking the sniper and negotiating my way forwards so I can block river crossings or flanking attacks.
My CM experience with these pea shooters is that they only really give you a 15 second button up window so an ally can surprise your target. You’re really unlikely to get a commander kill, and in either case you usually still see yourself the victim of 88mm of high explosive moments later.
On top of that, they can’t be hidden – if they are in a building with LoS to a german tank they can fired on whether they have been noticed or not. They’re going to be tricky to use.
Oh gosh, I had not thought of that. That really makes this weird. Snipers who can’t hide?
TURN 9
ORDER
Sniper QUICK to building floor 1 K3
QUICK to building floor 1 i3
ORDER TURN 9
QUICK i11E
FACE Panther’s current position, target arc on the gap at C6
WAIT 10s
REVERSE k12W
I highly doubt that the Panther will stay put, but figure its worth a look just in case.
ORDER TURN 9
TARGET ARC where the Panther is
HUNT b1SW
HUNT a2-
Alea iacta est. Let’s hope IS-2 armor is as bouncy as I’m told it is in Combat Mission.
TURN 9 (I guess?)
It occurs to me that, in the latest comments sidebar, I’ve never seen Gobser post in the German mess, even in the lead-up to turns.
I wonder if he has some kind of ‘broken radio’ trait? It would explain the excess of caution. The other Krauts are plenty chatty in the mess thread, so I’d be surprised if they have a side channel.
>> I wonder if he has some kind of ‘broken radio’ trait?
Excellent deduction. Gobser had the ‘lone wolf’ trait meaning he was unable to access the German mess.
*Soviet inf units*
2-man sniper team at j3/j3E, moving.
3-man scout team (SMGs) at 3nNW, stationary.
@Tim: I have LoS to the King Tiger but haven’t noticed it yet. Does that allow me to use the ‘intuitive’ trait?
Yes.
Okidokes, I’d like to use the trait this turn.
TURN 10
Victory on the coin toss and beneficiary of the game’s first miss: this is perhaps not total payment for bad luck in earlier turns, but it is a good step in that direction. I’m glad Gobser decided to move too. Moving tank advancing on static tank might well have gone the other direction; I wonder if hull-down on the bridge contributed to more aiming time.
For my edification, would (say) a SLOW have been better than a HUNT? Does HUNT inform the tank’s crew to be more ready to attack than other move orders?
@Tim: how far around has the King Tiger’s turret gone, as of the end of the turn, and has the IS-2 crew spotted it?
The results of copperbottom’s trait will probably determine an awful lot about our turn. copperbottom needs another sub-grid square or two to be safe from the Tiger, and probably can’t afford to stop—going by the diagram, the Tiger has a shot as early as f12-, but copperbottom is safe from a Tiger as far advanced as g11S (which seems unlikely, given that I’m still covering the river) once he reaches j11S or so.
The King Tiger, on the other hand, can see awfully deep into the i11 alley. I don’t need a vast quantity of turret traverse to put a shot on the KT, however, and copperbottom is close to a shot too, both against the KT’s side armor, if I’m reading the screenshots right. The maximum-prudence move for the KT would be to retreat. The somewhat less prudent move would be to trust the Tiger to cover his flank and try to get back onto me. The minimally prudent move would be to let the turret keep swinging and try for a shot at copperbottom; even with turret vs. no turret and a bit of retreating still required, I’m not sure that ends well for the KT, given that there are two guns pointed roughly in his direction as the clock stops.
My options are probably one of:
1. Stay put and try to get a shot off at the King Tiger, if the KT is going to retreat, and then perhaps advance or reverse somewhat to give myself more favorable armor angles for the coming turns.
2. Advance slightly, if the King Tiger is going to try to get a shot at me, to remove that opportunity and allow copperbottom some time to fire himself.
3. Reverse slightly and target the KT, if the KT is going to try to shoot at copperbottom.
Now that we have returned the game to even odds and relatively favorable positions, I wonder if this is the time to try to consolidate? Perhaps I’m getting ahead of myself—if we kill the King Tiger, the calculus changes—but we seem to be at a point where we can afford some additional forethought. For myself, watching Oneknown’s earlier exploits, and having spent some time on the German side of the river too, I have had my fill of it for now, especially with German infantry on the board.
Speaking of, with the infantry hidden, Oneknown’s options have now opened up dramatically.
>> its gun remains firmly trained on the IS-2
Eek.
Depending on the KT’s orders, that may change my plans!
TURN 10
Huzzah. We needed that flip.
I think we have the KT in the best pincer we’re likely to get. Now is the time to risk a trade. If we lose one and take out the KT we can probably win this. If we take out KT without a loss we almost certainly win.
I have to assume the KT is going to have a fire order, and the question is which one it gets. If the barrel is 50/50 right now I say we slap a pair of fire orders on it and hope we get the first shot. Does your trait allow us to know which way he’s gonna go?
I’m gonna keep moving up the sniper but it will be a few turns.
@Tim can I take the scouts too?
>>can I take the scouts too?
Yes.
>>how far around has the King Tiger’s turret gone, as of the end of the turn, and has the IS-2 crew spotted it?
Apologies, the original turn report (now corrected) was misleading. After taking another look at the replay, although the KT has spotted the SU-100, its gun remains firmly trained on the IS-2! Not sure where I got the idea that it had shifted focus.
TURN 10
I’m going to be occupied on Sunday, so depending on what we hear about the KT’s plans and when we hear it, I may not be able to put in orders until Sunday night EST. Thought I would provide a heads-up—I can delegate this move to someone else if strictly necessary.
SunderLad has yet to issue an order. I’ll probably process the turn early on Monday (UK time) so orders supplied on Sunday night should get implemented.
SunderLad is still deliberating, I’m afraid.
TURN 10
I have a question for anyone better versed in Combat Mission than me (so, everyone, pretty much). We saw last turn that acquiring a target with a HUNT order cancels all movement that turn. Is that true for other orders? With the KT’s barrel pointing northwards, it would make sense to try and get a shot away near the start of the turn, but I can’t afford to hang around too long before reversing in case the Tiger advances. Any thoughts on the best way to structure an order like that?
I believe hunt is the only movement order that can be short-circuited in this way. A pause order of, say, 20 seconds together with a reverse and a fire order should allow the SU to halt, fire a couple of shots at the KT, then continue backing up.
I vote a TARGET, pause 20, then reverse should give you time to line up the shot. Tigers have slow turrets. Hopefully we manage a quick kill.
TURN 10
Some idle thoughts as I wait for a meeting to start:
Digging into reference material, hull down appears to be a fairly high-risk position for the IS-2—the turret front is significantly less survivable than the upper hull, and since the Combat Mission point of aim is ‘middle of the target’, hull down means shooting for the turret. Good in that it’s possible to miss, as last turn indicated, bad in that hits are probably disastrous, unless they’re lucky-for-me oblique hits to the turret side.
The real question is the KT reload time. The next shot is likely to connect, but I don’t know if your REVERSE or FAST is going to start fast enough to even dodge a first shot.
Still, my vote is FAST forward, cover armor in the direction of the KT, and hide until we see how our TD fares. We might just get lucky.
TURN 10
@Tim: can I get an update on where our infantry is sitting? How close is the sniper to its destination?
ORDER:
Should I be away before we get info on the KT (I’m flying to the UK today):
The scouts mirror the sniper’s action from last turn.
The sniper FAST and HIDE from i3 to h4n level 1. Cover arc 40m.
That’s a 360 degree 40m arc. Basically a “don’t shoot unless they’re on top of you”
2-man sniper team at j3/j3E, moving.
3-man scout team (SMGs) at 3nNW, stationary.
TURN 10
REVISED ORDER
Sniper:
clear orders
Target arc 360 40m
QUICK j3w
QUICK j4sw
FAST HIDE house at j6w
Scouts:
Target arc 360 40m
QUICK HIDE house m6w
@Tim: Do the scouts have any AT weapons at all?
ORDER TURN 10 (provisional)
I’ll try and check-in in the morning, and may revise this order in light of Sunderlad’s. In case I can or do not:
TARGET ARC narrowly centered on the KT’s current position
WAIT 12 seconds
REVERSE down the alley to the border of j11 and j12.
ORDER TURN 10 (REVISED)
REVERSE j11-
FACE e9E
TARGET ARC width from west edge of bolesav bridge to e10N
WAIT 25 seconds
REVRSE to border of j11 and j12
ORDER TURN 10 (REVISED AGAIN)
FACE e9E
REVERSE directly backwards about half a tank length
TARGET ARC width from west edge of bolesav bridge to e10N
WAIT 25 seconds
REVERSE to border of j11 and j12
TURN 10
I’d very much prefer to put in an order with the benefit of knowledge of the KT’s actions, so I’m going to hold off on providing an actual order until I wake up tomorrow, around 8 or 9 EST.
If a turn runs before we hear the KT’s order, we can go with armor arc ‘the western end of Boleslav bridge’ and fast to just off the western end of the North bridge.
This turn the King Tiger will endeavour to “Pop smoke. Fast move E9E. Target SU. Fast moves E10E, D11. D12NE.”
(Turn report will probably appear Tuesday morning, UK time)
Appreciate the extra time!
TURN 10
Pretty surprised by the KT’s plans! It feels like it’s en route to where there Tiger is now, which has me wondering what the tiger and scouts are going to be up to. Heading to the south bridge to try and pin me in the alley?
You could not have picked a better time to use your trait, I think!
The Tiger is the question here for sure. I think getting into the alley is probably still a good idea, in case he’s trying to come forward to see that one of them gets a shot at you if not both.
TURN 10 ORDER
If there’s an ‘unbutton’ order that doesn’t add movement, do that.
Target armor from a little west of the KT’s current position to a little east of the alley where the Tiger is.
Reverse d1S if reverse is likely to be interrupted to engage a spotted tank, or otherwise to d1SW.
Wait 15 seconds.
Reverse ending in a little arc up to d1E to end facing SSWish, and revise the target arcs to cover from west of the west end of the Boleslav bridge, to as much of the south bridge as I can see from there.
Reverse will not end of a target is spotted. You’ll be firing on the move. A pause before reverse might give you a more stable shot, if your turret goes fast enough before the smoke blocks the KT.
You cannot change arcs once you set them. So you either get the first arc or the second. Note that arcs don’t make you any better at spotting in or out of them. They just limit what targets the AI will engage. In our case you should be safe to just put a big 360 degree target armor just to avoid wasting time on infantry.
I wish we could count on TARGET AREA BRIEFLY exactly on the spot where we know the KT is. But I expect the AI will throw HE which doesn’t do us much good.
I love the that the KT won’t go for a second shot. Let’s see what actually happens, but this could be our big turn.
Target arc turns the turret to face the center of the arc, though, doesn’t it? Not sure if we’ve spotted the King Tiger yet, but if not, getting the turret moving that direction should increase the chances of seeing it before it goes out of sight.
Generally, though, are you saying those target arcs can’t be changed at a certain point of the turn? “Target arc [left] until you get to this position, then target arc [right]” isn’t expressible in CM WeGo?
The manual certainly claims that it aids spotting for the reason you suggest: “After placing an arc, the unit will rotate its main gun turret – if available – to face the center of the designated target arc, to minimize acquisition delays and maximize spotting abilities.”
You are correct. You get to set one arc or target and that stays for the turn. The exception is TARGET BRIEFLY which clears after maybe 20 or 30 seconds.
This is part of why I’m happy about the KT. If it’s going to target the SU then by definition it cannot target the tank, so I’m hoping you won’t be shot at twice.
Today I learned! That makes a difference to future orders.
TURN 10 ORDER (REVISED)
As above, but wait 15 seconds before reversing, then no pause in the middle of the reverse. (So, target armor, wait 15, reverse to d1S, then a little hook turn to d1E.)
If indeed target arcs can’t be adjusted mid-60, end with a face order if that’ll swing the turret around to the south, I guess?
Darn, that’s one I wish I could take back. A bit of movement at the start might have been just the thing.
Ah well! To gamble and lose is part of the game.
In the end, my trait proved a double edged sword, I guess. We focused on the target order on me, and put less emphasis on the barrel already pointed at you…
My pre-revision order was probably better—I fell into the trap of thinking like a gamer rather than a танкист. Might have ended the game in our favor, too, if I’d backed up and the KT had missed (although if he had a solid center-mass hit, I’m not sure two seconds of movement would have thrown him off); I think I would have had a sightline on the Tiger perched on the bank.
Nothing for it now, though—I think ‘hunt’ was the right move to eliminate the Panther and simplify the game, even if it left me in a poor position with the KT later. One for one there isn’t the worst trade on Earth, and the SU-100’s gun is a lot more trustworthy against the front of a plain jane Tiger than the royal model.
TURN 11
Squeaky-bum time now..! I wonder if the KT’s trait was a broken reverse gear? Either way, things are very much in the balance and I’m all ears to suggestions for a strategy from here. My first thought is that I should probably withdraw via K12 – I can’t take on the Tiger head on without a turret. I am concerned that German reinforcements might have had enough time to set up an ambush for me at the southern end, but that risk will only increase with time…
Remember that you two are somewhat in a bind: whoever pokes their head out first gets killed.
So infantry will play a role. My guess is that we can time something so that the sniper or infantry distracts the Tiger long enough for you to line up a shot.
I wish our minefield wasn’t in some distant corner of the map.
Well, one thing the flaming wreck that was formerly my tank is doing, even in death, is blocking the north bridge, so if the Tiger wants to come a-hunting, it’s going to have to cross either the Boleslav bridge or the south bridge. (Which, unfortunately, probably takes my mines out of the equation. Shame the Tiger has the turret facing this way. Would have been awfully convenient if he were aiming somewhere else. It wouldn’t be the most thrilling victory, but I guess there’s still a chance he falls into the river. <.<
As far as the Tiger's future plans, that's hard to say. If you do the obvious thing, reversing down the alley, there isn't much he can do to contest it in the next few turns, as far as I can see. He might try to reset nearer the middle of the map and plan from there, or maybe he's going to try to link up with some infantry. (If he goes south, I'd maybe expect to see some infantry in that direction too.)
I think you probably have at least this turn before you have to worry too much about infantry on this side of the river. Oneknown has been bringing ours forward pretty aggressively, and they'd still be a shy of our side of the river if they were moving that way.
With some additional infantry (mounted, it seems!) on the map, maybe we start rolling that south to protect your line of retreat into the city?
TURN 11
Thoughts on disposition of our new toys? Maybe send the scout team west (to keep an eye on any sneaky German infantry maneuvers toward the north bridge), and the halftrack and flamethrower team south (to provide some anti-infantry firepower if we need to provide copperbottom an escape hatch)?
ORDER TURN 11
FACE SE and button up
FAST k13NE, L13N, L12SE, L12E, L12N, L10-
Time to relocate. There could be german infantry on the riverbank already, and the longer I hang around the likelier that gets.
TURN 11 ORDER
Can the flamethrower team mount up in the halftrack? If so, let’s finagle that first, and if it’s possible to do that plus some orders, they can go with the M9 down south a bit.
M9A1:
MOVE m3E
FAST n6NW
MOVE n7NW
FAST m8-
New scouts:
FAST l3N
FAST g3SE
(Thinking maybe getting them into the g4SW or f4E building for a view over the river?)
If the flamethrower team can’t mount up, move the M9 on its own and the flamethrower team south toward m8 as well, quickly, along the m/n file.
(I give leave for either active teammate to countermand these orders if they have better/more strategically-unified ideas for the units in question.)
TURN 11
Trying to understand the options we get from the new units. My strong bias is to hold our side and not try to invade the other bank.
I want to get our southern scouts to K12 where they can ambush enemies that make it across the bridge but can’t be seen from the bridge.
Our sniper is trickier. Ideally we want it somewhere 90 degrees from our TD so we can ping the Tiger, distract it, then advance and snipe it. J9 or so?
If the truck pauses for say 45 I think it’s safe to mount up the flame crew and then move it. Always leave lots of time for mounting since CM can be awkward about it.
Concur with ‘hold onto our side of the bank’, with a side of ‘make sure we have intelligence on any Germans trying to cross the river on foot’, so we can be relatively sure that our backfield is clear.
Your plans for the sniper and southern scouts seem solid. Where exactly the sniper team goes depends on where copperbottom wants to take an engagement from, and I think that depends in part on what the Tiger does. J9 is pretty central, which is good.
TURN 11
ORDER
Scouts at L6
PAUSE 20 if not at Rested or Ready status
QUICK to M10
PAUSE 15
FAST and HIDE to L11
Sniper
PAUSE 15
QUICK J7w
PAUSE 15
FAST and HIDE J9 level 1
TURN 12
North scouts either to f1, or to f3, I’m thinking? f1 is better against anything trying to infiltrate from the north. f3 has a better view of the Boleslav bridge. Maybe we send the Sherman crew to h8/h9 for some eyes there?
The halftrack could maybe be a bit of a feint at this stage—it obviously stopped to load something, and the expectation in the other mess might be that it’s something with anti-tank capability.
TURN 12
ORDERS
Sniper: catch a breath then climb the stairs, staying hidden
PAUSE 30
SLOW and HIDE j9 level 4
Scouts at K10sw: move forward a row of buildings, maneuver to the street edge, get up a few floors
CLEAR ORDERS
TARGET ARC 40m 360 degree
QUICK k11sw
SLOW and HIDE from k11sw to k12e level 1
PAUSE 30
SLOW and HIDE level 3
TURN 12
Apologies for not posting yet – been busy at work, and have been trying to come up with a coherent strategy to little avail. I think I should probably be getting to cover until our infantry screen is in place and spotting, but staying somewhat near the action to be able to respond to an attempt to storm either of Boleslav or South bridges. I could loiter around k11? Open to suggestions.
Wherever you hang out, it would be good to have a quick line of sight onto the bridges, so as to be able to catch the Tiger crossing if that’s what he tries to do. k11 might be a little isolated from the south bridge.
I think I’ll probably put the north scout team at f1, shuttle the flamethrower team down south with the halftrack on the theory that we might see some manner of combined-arms push there, and ask Tim if we can move the Sherman crew into some building with a view across the Boleslav bridge.
TURN 12 ORDER:
Halftrack: let’s deliver the flamethrower crew south.
MOVE l2SE
FAST n5SW
MOVE n7SW
FAST m9S
North scouts: get into a building and give us some spotting on that side of the map, in case anyone tries a sneaky end run.
QUICK to a building about f2N.
Up to the third floor, face west.
Target arc 360°, 40 meters.
Sherman crew: if they’re order-able, same with them.
QUICK h7S
Target arc as above to engage only close-range targets.
Enter the building, up to the second floor.
Face west.
ORDER TURN 12
Turn 180 degrees and then unbutton
Reverse a few metres onto the surface of willow street, still facing SW
I agree with Fishbreath, going to k11 just boxes me in to little actual purpose. No one has shot at me yet, so I probably have time to turn around and cover the bridge.
TURN 13
Well friends, we’re in a real bind. It normally takes a 3x advantage to attack an enemy, and we’re lucky if we’re dead even.
Best option seems to use ambush positions. It’s a shame the minefield is literally in the corner of the map. Blocking off a bridge or major artery would have been nice.
The north squad needs to GTFO before that Tiger blows them all away in one shot. FAST is definitely in order.
Unbuttoning is to be avoided, as the CM commanders in Eastern Europe learned last year. Let’s camp a corridor and close it off to our enemies.
Which leaves questions about snipers, flame throwers, and scouts.
I like the scouts in the south being out of sight, and I very much like where the sniper is. Any infantry that tries to cross will almost certainly lose a member to our scoped Mosin rifle. I may want to move the south scouts depending on what happens next turn. I like them static for now.
Honestly I don’t know about the FT. It’s too far to get across a bridge. I guess they could be used should our opponents get across and hold a house. Still, it’s hard to know.
I might do some theory crafting of our ideal defensive positions, and if I find a good one I’ll reply here with details.
Looking at the schematic map and reading the description, I don’t think the north scouts have (yet) been spotted. With the Tiger buttoned, and no indication of the scouts’ position in the post for a “blast the building at such-and-such coordinate” order, they may not be in immediate danger. I might propose a pause 10 or 15 to see if they luck into attritting the German scouts, before scooting them out the east side of the building and to a new position with a similar view.
The flamethrower team should probably go in a position much like the south scouts, shielded from view across the river but controlling a road. We have some evidence of German infantry moving through the middle of the map, so maybe we send the flamethrower team that way.
Bringing the minefield into play is a bit of a pipe dream at this stage, but it may be possible to bait him into it longer-term if a) the Tiger plus some German infantry try to cross the river fully, and b) copperbottom hangs out in the northeast corner of the map with some friendly foot nearby to cover his flanks, and scoots around the block to lure the Tiger into a chase.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tiger tries to cross the Boleslav bridge, given the smoke screen the King Tiger set before biting the dust, and the probable lack of any AT infantry on the field so far. (We don’t have any yet; for reasons of scenario balance I expect the Germans probably don’t either, and if they don’t, I expect them to make the same calculation.)
k11 would actually give a little keyhole view of the west end of the bridge before the smokescreen, and may be attainable before the Tiger gets there, if that’s where he’s going. Otherwise, maybe we run the SU-100 up north and try to play the mines game. (But the Tiger may be a little leery of venturing so close to our reinforcements-arrive point.)
“I don’t think the north scouts have (yet) been spotted”
They haven’t.
Oooh. It’s so risky though. The Tiger could just throw a shell to the north, and 15 seconds is a long time. But I’m ok with that plan since taking out 1-2 scouts could do a lot for us.
Don’t forget our sniper also can cover the west end of the middle bridge.
@Tim: can you give a sense of what the sniper team can see from their position? What floor are they on again?
I agree, let’s get the flame team ready to torch a building should our enemy occupy one near the middle bridge.
Apologies. I had an unusually busy week and missed this question. I’ll try to answer this after posting today’s report.
TURN 13 ORDER
Halftrack:
FAST k9SE
FAST k9NW
FAST k6W
Disembark FT.
Flamethrower team:
I assume I won’t be able to do anything with them this turn. If I can, here are the orders. If not, here are my proposals.
MOVE to the building at the corner, i6NE, third floor, face west.
TARGET as far as the junction of East St. and the Boleslav Bridge approach.
North scouts:
PAUSE 15
QUICK g1SW
QUICK g2SW
MOVE into the building on the f2-f3 line, third floor, face SW
TARGET within 50m to see if they’ll hold fire this time.
TURN 13 ORDER
FAST N5SW
K5SW
TURN 14
OK. We know where they are. Time to turn up the pressure.
Let’s get our (buttoned) half track to a spot where it can fire on that scout team in the Borislav house. J8 as a destination, Fishbreath?
Meanwhile I like where my sniper is hiding. We’ll probably have to get the AT team across the river, and I think the north bridge is likely to be the safest route. Any foes approaching the university could be quick targets, so as soon as Tim gives me more info I can lay down a target arc. But with enemy scouts so close, I don’t want to expose my team yet.
And then there is the question of the scouts in the south. I think they are likely in a good position, but it could be improved to cover the bridge better.
If it’s cool with everyone I would like to take one of the AT teams too.
@Tim: usually AT grenades are listed in the same panel as RPGs and the like in other CM games, and are separate from the grenade ammo bar. Any chance we can get a full count on how many each squad has?
TURN 14
Apologies for not contributing much to discussion over the last few weeks – this is down to a combination of a busy period at work, but also some uncertainty as to how I should be approaching things. As the last tank, I guess I should be acting like the king in chess and broadly staying out of trouble. On the flip-side, I feel like the Germans outgun us, and if I loiter way behind the lines I might pass up opportunities to help thin out their infantry. Ultimately, I think I have to assume there are some panzerfausts on the opposite bank by now and keep my head down, but if there any suggestions of whereabouts would be most useful, then I am all ears.
TURN 14
I’m all for giving Oneknown one of the AT teams. (Or both; I have a vehicle and two groups of infantry at the moment.)
Halftrack to j8 sounds like a good idea, too; nice little keyhole view there of the probable location of the enemy.
I like the idea of AT teams across the river; sneaking up and tossing a grenade into the Tiger’s hatches/onto its engine deck would be a neat way to wrap things up. As a secondary goal, some kind of infantry umbrella around the SU-100 is probably worth pursuing too—an inner ring of defense for anyone who slips past (or has slipped past) our outer infantry screen.
I suspect our infantry count will continue to grow. Maybe the north scouts ought to probe the bridge, in case the krauts have some sentries there already.
TURN 14 ORDERS
AT Team1
Cover arc 30m
Quick to K2
quick through the buildings to H2s
hide
AT Team 2
Cover arc 30m
Quick N6
Quick K9e
HIDE
Sniper
Continue to hide. I’ll wake him up when the halftrack is in position
South scouts:
Cover arc circle 40m
Slow to floor 2
Hide
I’m waiting to hear more about the sniper LoS and AT team ammo from Tim, but these orders should suffice.
Can we do some deception with the truck and make it look like we’re doing something up north?
TURN 14 ORDER
Halftrack:
REVERSE k9NW
Button up, if there’s a command that does that?
MOVE or SLOW in an arc to approach j8W directly from the east.
Scouts and Sherman team:
No changes to current orders.
One of the trucks at the reinforcement point:
FAST g2W
Hee. Oops!
Well, there’s a distraction.
TURN 15
Frigging hilarious. Did any of our people actually draw an advantageous condition?
I hadn’t noticed that there was some kind of destroyed SPG near the south bridge. That’s creates some strange LoS concerns for the scouts.
I’m of a mind to reroute the southern AT team west to cover the middle bridge and have the sniper direct our TD south to flatten that building. Between that and the halftrack hammering e9 we might be able to really do some damage to our enemy, allowing us to get across to the other side.
Miner would have been much more useful, if I had spawned somewhere nearer the enemy. Good for a chuckle here, at least, and for confirmation that I could well have driven the IS-2 onto a mine on turn 1 if not for specifying a route around it. 😛
copperbottom’s ‘read the enemy’s order’ trait was solidly in the useful category. The other two were drawbacks.
On the other side of the coin, the Panther’s ‘no talking to friends’ trait was an extremely bad one, mitigated mainly by the fact that he drew a strong spawn position.
TURN 15 ORDER
I6NW, face south
The situation seems very much a stalemate at present, but if there is still a plan to advance troops over North bridge (though, if that anti-tank unit isn’t anti-tank, perhaps there is little point) maybe I can feint south a little to draw some attention that way.
TURN 16
@Tim: I’m totally in favor if you want to call this one a draw. I’ve been thinking about what kind of situation would allow us to get a win besides a coin flip, and it’s likely to resemble the current Ukraine war rather than the cowboy standoff we had in earlier turns.
We would need scouts to move SLOW with rests every other minute, to get across the bridge, covered by a sniper and HT. Once they were across we would shuttle the FT and AT team over as well, hoping to carefully maneuver until they were close to the Tiger. And then we’d try to sync up the sniper and those two units hitting the tank at the same time.
That’s not a bad plan, but it’s the kind that takes 45 minutes and isn’t very exciting to watch.
That’s been at the heart of my indecisiveness the last few turns: the more that I think about it, the more the correct answer appears to be turtle on our bank and stall for a draw or a catastrophic mistake from our opponents. They are also likely making similar deductions, which just leads to a stalemate.
That said though, I’d be happy to do the wrong thing and go out in a blaze of misplaced glory. Just because we can force a draw doesn’t mean that we *should* – those commisars need to see our Soviet zeal, after all…
Oops, missed the deadline. Sorry! It’s been a busy week.
… and it’s going to be a busy week to come, so I’ll preregister some orders. (The other commanders are welcome to edit these if better plans arise.)
TURN 16 ORDER
Halftrack:
Advance a wee bit more and hose down the building at e9 with the machine guns.
Flamethrower team:
Move to the i6NE building and up to the second floor. Target arc to include the row of buildings across the street to the west.
North scouts:
Quick to the f1E/g1W line, with an eye toward crossing the north bridge next turn (or now? other commanders weigh in)
Sherman crew:
Hold position, eyes peeled.
A recent comment from a Red Team player…
(VFRHawk) “So does anyone have any ideas on how we can inject some excitement into proceedings without taking fool-hardy risks – given Tim’s latest update? I can’t realistically think of anything useful we can do, other than…[redacted].
@Tim maybe some sort of radical unexpected event? A large airdrop that lands in the middle of the map on the middle bridge, first to secure it and get it back to a predesignated square on their side wins? Needs x people or a vehicle to move it. Can’t think of anything that would be thematically accurate, though if you fancy humour a Kelly’s Heroes style gold bullion stash being washed up against the bridge might do it! Or all the dead armoured vehicles are suddenly revived, but with a proviso that the crews have got to make there ways back to them?
I can see this limping to a sad end as detailed in the last update otherwise.”
…set me thinking…
(Tim)”I like the idea of a “radical unscripted event”. The nature of CM means I’m unable to add new units or restore dead ones on-the-fly, but if both teams agree I could restart the scenario (random spawn points, no traits) with a new ‘golden goal’-style victory condition. First team to KO an enemy AFV wins.
The alternative is to call a halt and declare a draw which would, I think, be a fair result.”
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Blue Team.
I now see three possible ways to bring Lions of Lodowice to a conclusion:
1. Restart with random spawns and ‘golden goal’ rule (first kill wins the game) in place. (a_monk not keen on this option)
2. Declare a draw.
3. Completely ditch FoW and declare Boleslav Bridge a VL (Control of this at the end of the game will determine outcome).
I’ll go with whichever option gets the most votes (this message will also appear in the other mess).
My order of preference (most to least) would be 3, 1, 2.
The bridge as a VL forces the action but builds on what has already happened – the losses both sides have accrued matter.
A restart would be fun but likely very brief and a bit of a coin toss based on whatever the most favourable/unfavourable spawn is. It would also make the prior turns a bit meaningless.
A draw would be fair, but ultimately bathetic. We are playing a game, and playing it with spectators. I’d rather get blown up recklessly than hold for a draw, verisimilitude be damned.